Well it is official. The Kinky Piggy now carries my version of the leather Josephine! Check it out at: http://kinkypiggy.ca/shop/862-leather-josephine.html#/colour-brown I am extremely proud of this and hope this is the beginning of new opportunities for me.
Also I'm taking the plunge and reopening my shop on Etsy store under the banner - Josephine's Leather Delights. More on that in the coming days. Now that Pet has moved in, we are exploring what we can make and sell together. I love making leather Josephines and floggers and am developing some jewelry items that should appeal to kinksters as well. I just designed a business card this evening. Let me know what you think.
From Beneath the Rose
Kink lifestyle information, personal stories, musings and erotica...from a Cougar's perspective
Monday, May 13, 2013
Wednesday, April 24, 2013
Over 100000 page views and counting
Wow. I just checked in on my blog to discover that it has had just over 100000 page views since I started it back in the fall of 2010. Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to visit. :-)
On another note, Pet should be moved here by early next week and our little "pack" will finally be together in one place. I'l be glad when we are all settled in. My energy is very low these days due to other issues, which is why I've written so little over the past few months.
Hopefully spring will bring renewal all around. More later.
On another note, Pet should be moved here by early next week and our little "pack" will finally be together in one place. I'l be glad when we are all settled in. My energy is very low these days due to other issues, which is why I've written so little over the past few months.
Hopefully spring will bring renewal all around. More later.
Sunday, April 14, 2013
Musings from a tired but happy kinkster
There are a lot of mundane matters to consider when one is forming a human pack that have absolutely nothing to do with sex or kink:
I did get the opportunity last evening to while away a few very civilized hours in the company of other kinksters at a lovely dinner party. There was lots of very good food, good conversation and a little play. Pet was on his best behavior and made me proud. At one point I fiddled almost absentmindedly with a short length of rope and bound one of Pet's hands. A while later I had him shed his shirt for a short flogging session. I can't tell you how very good it felt to swing my arm again! But alas, I found myself tiring, so he and I thanked our lovely hostess and took our leave before midnight. I had such plans for what I was going to do to him afterwards, but those were quickly set aside. Instead we tumbled into bed and indulged in some snuggling and a lot of stifled giggling. I have come to love how we trigger each other's sense of humor even when we are both dead tired!
- sufficient space for all the adults and assorted pets
- transportation for said adults
- division of household labor
- wills, advance health care directives, insurances, etc.
And all of this is taking much time and planning. As a result, my play time (and energy for said play time) has been sorely lacking.
Today, Pet and I were on the hunt for a used vehicle as the one I have will not be sufficient for four adults. I'm happy to report that we were successful. By this time tomorrow, most of the related paperwork will be done and it should be sitting in the driveway. Pet has given his notice and is going through the process of sorting through his things, deciding what he will keep, store, etc. We've also begun planning the temporary conversion of the play space into a bedsitter for him, so there is still a lot to get done before we are all on the same piece of property. The good news is we are making steady progress.
Today I found a lovely comment awaiting moderation. As I read it, I was reminded of why I started this blog in the first place. Initially, this blog was the only place outside my own head where I could be myself. Of course things have changed. I am living more authentically and am fortunate to have three wonderful adults in my life with whom I am intimate in different ways and on different levels.
The nature of what I have to share on this blog may have changed as I struggle to preserve the privacy of my pack, but perhaps I have things yet to share that may offer encouragement and/or validation to others on their journey. Only time will tell.
Thanks to all my readers for hanging in there with me. :-)
Saturday, March 2, 2013
Checking In
Lately I've been considering the future of this blog. There is a lot going on in my life and I am conscious of wanting to nurture what is growing in and around me.
I have three loving adults, four dogs and two cats in my daily life. Then there is the larger circle of family and friends. For the first time in my life, I feel like I am putting down roots where I live. Not everyone here is accepting of me; but there is enough acceptance to make me want make this place my home and has kindled my interest in community participation.
As polyamory and kink have become integrated into my life, I am no longer driven to spend time on Fetlife. I guess in part because I am more fulfilled and balanced than at any other time in my life. And I'm finally making time to develop other interests perhaps because I finally believe I can. I find it funny that my vanilla life is benefiting as much from the re-balancing brought on by embracing the kinky aspects of my psyche.
I'm proud of this blog. I was scared to death when I started it. I had never kept a written journal of any type for as long and as consistently as I have kept up this blog. The page views and comments have been a tremendous source of validation for me, for which I will always be grateful.
I turn fifty in a few days time and am taking a little time off to relax and think. I'll let you know how it goes. :-)
Sunday, February 10, 2013
The Instrument of My Pleasure
Finally, between the storms of February, I managed a short visit with Pet. The weather was getting worse and his place of employment closed early so our evening began a little sooner than expected. There was no time to pick up anything on the way back to his place, but thankfully, the storm hadn't yet closed down pizza delivery!
My trips to his place usually start out on a domestic note. We make some food, catch up on each other's news and bond with his kitty-cat. Eventually, usually prompted by his scent (as I am sitting close to him as we eat), my mind begins to fill with deliciously wicked thoughts. Last evening was no exception.
I reached in under his sweater and started unbuttoning his dress shirt. I ran my hand along his chest, scraping my nails against his skin and eliciting a shiver. I pushed against his chest forcing him to lean back against a pillow, unbuckled his belt and loosened his pants. Reaching under his briefs I grabbed a handful of him and squeezed. I heard his breath catch and I looked in his eyes. We both smiled.
I told him early on last evening that I intended to take my pleasure on him. I warned him I would be greedy and exacting, and what we didn't finish that night would be continued in the morning.
I had brought only my leather Josephine with me. There are times when I prefer to mostly use my own body to torment Pet and this was to be one of those evenings. I find I'm beginning to enjoy tormenting his feet, which are quite sensitive, alternating between tickling and slapping them with leather, forcing him to keep them still. I paddled his ass and thighs thoroughly, his cock and balls repeatedly, and managed to get in some ball busting using my knees. I also covered his body with my own at times and pressed the bony parts of my frame into his most tender parts, sometimes bouncing hard against them.
During the odd rest period, I held him close and whispered simple questions in his ear: "Who's Pet are you? Who's toy are you?"
Each time he answered with a breathless, "Yours M'am." I growled and moved on to the next torment.
I will never get tired of seeing his expression, when he is caught up in the moment with me. He accepts what I give him with a willingness that both exhilarates and humbles me. Sometimes I push him hard and feel him struggle to give what I need. He always gives me his best and never lets me down. Through his surrender and obedience, he creates a safe space for me to give into my nature and to take what I need. Through his gratitude, he has helped me find self-acceptance.
He is the instrument of my pleasure - my wonderful, loving Pet.
Tuesday, February 5, 2013
Thwarted by the Weather
So, the unpredictable wind and weather of February have grounded me. Pet has two days off in a row (a rare occurrence) and I have two days off during the week yet we are unable to connect. Yesterday, we messaged each other regarding our respective disappointment and then did our best to make the other smile in spite of the weather. My Pet is a sweet man and has a great talent for making me smile from a distance.
Since I had some free time, I turned my attention to creative pursuits. Pet and I messaged each other throughout the afternoon. His last few trips here, he has spent time with me in the studio. He understands my need for quiet as it is one that he also shares. As a result, he is one of the few people I encourage to visit me there.
The weather for the remainder of the week is somewhat unpredictable. I have no idea when I'll get to see him again, let alone play with him.
There is an irony in my life at the moment in that I now share my living space with two other people, but not him. The third person in my life is someone I've known only a short time. All the adjustments we've made both in terms of changing the actual living space to altering our respective personal habits are consuming resources and energy from all of us, as expected. And yet it seems my time with Pet has become even harder to arrange in the interim. I'd be lying if I said this hasn't frustrated me. In truth, I think sometimes I'm even just a little resentful.
C is a sweetie, don't get me wrong, but she was my Partner's choice. I accepted her because she is important to my Partner and they had already forged a relationship. She has added to my Partner's quality of life, no question, and I have already developed an affection for her. When I agreed to allowing her to come here, I understood it was for a specific time period. But then she arrived and the nature of her relationship with my Partner changed. And here we are.
The experience of C moving in has given my Partner insight into the nature of my relationship with Pet and has helped her to accept it and him in a way that may not have been possible before. In that respect, C has done me a huge favor. Conversely, I have been given insight into my Partner's perspective.
The main difference for me is that I am having to adjust the presence of a third person on a 24/7 basis at a time when seeing Pet has become more challenging due to the weather. And as much as I want this to work out for all four of us, I have moments when I'm just a little resentful that the evolution of C's and my partner's relationship has overtaken mine with Pet.
I am a grown-up, I will get past this as I care deeply for my Partner's happiness.
Now if only the damn weather would cooperate...
Since I had some free time, I turned my attention to creative pursuits. Pet and I messaged each other throughout the afternoon. His last few trips here, he has spent time with me in the studio. He understands my need for quiet as it is one that he also shares. As a result, he is one of the few people I encourage to visit me there.
The weather for the remainder of the week is somewhat unpredictable. I have no idea when I'll get to see him again, let alone play with him.
There is an irony in my life at the moment in that I now share my living space with two other people, but not him. The third person in my life is someone I've known only a short time. All the adjustments we've made both in terms of changing the actual living space to altering our respective personal habits are consuming resources and energy from all of us, as expected. And yet it seems my time with Pet has become even harder to arrange in the interim. I'd be lying if I said this hasn't frustrated me. In truth, I think sometimes I'm even just a little resentful.
C is a sweetie, don't get me wrong, but she was my Partner's choice. I accepted her because she is important to my Partner and they had already forged a relationship. She has added to my Partner's quality of life, no question, and I have already developed an affection for her. When I agreed to allowing her to come here, I understood it was for a specific time period. But then she arrived and the nature of her relationship with my Partner changed. And here we are.
The experience of C moving in has given my Partner insight into the nature of my relationship with Pet and has helped her to accept it and him in a way that may not have been possible before. In that respect, C has done me a huge favor. Conversely, I have been given insight into my Partner's perspective.
The main difference for me is that I am having to adjust the presence of a third person on a 24/7 basis at a time when seeing Pet has become more challenging due to the weather. And as much as I want this to work out for all four of us, I have moments when I'm just a little resentful that the evolution of C's and my partner's relationship has overtaken mine with Pet.
I am a grown-up, I will get past this as I care deeply for my Partner's happiness.
Now if only the damn weather would cooperate...
Sunday, February 3, 2013
Creating, sex and kink
Lately I spend more time in my studio practicing my artistic skills than exercising my gleeful sadist and time has been at a premium. I have been practicing my art, stealing what little time the work week affords and squeezing in what I can on the weekends. I sometimes go days without getting out there due to work and family obligations. When I do get out there and the ideas flow, I make some beautiful things! The act of creating is very powerful for me and I get cranky if I go too long in between studio sessions. In order to satisfy my need to create, I need to be well rested and to have sufficient time set aside. Easier said than done these days.
I also get cranky if I go too long between play sessions. Pet and I finally did get a session in last week after a bit of a dry spell. I don't know which one of us needed it more. My need to dominant, to strip him naked and have him accept whatever I choose to dish out, hadn't been exercised in a while. I have also not been on the receiving end of any erotic pain since well before Christmas. I was itching for both.
I stripped to the waist when I pulled out my single tail and began to alternate delivering blows to him and to me. The sting was invigorating! I peeled off a little more when I pulled out the Little Devil. I zapped him and then myself. At one point, I stood next to him, thigh to thigh, and alternated zaps. He was twitching and lurching while I was squealing with delight! I looked at him and said, "Sometimes I think I really scare you Pet." He quickly agreed, without taking his eyes off me. I think he was a little worried what I'd try next!
When we finally crawled into bed that night, I remarked on how focused and peaceful I felt. A play session with him always seems to settle me. The sensory experience combined with the loving acceptance I get from him feeds my soul. And there is no way I can satisfy this need alone.
And then there is my libido. Lately it seems it is at the bottom of the list behind my creative and kinky pursuits. I know that this time of year, my energy level is lower, so I'm not surprised that the space between sexual encounters has grown given the myriad of demands on my attention these days. Having said that, it is the easiest of the three to satisfy. We don't stand on ceremony around here. If someone gets horny, they always have the option of retiring to private space and taking the matter in hand, so to speak. It can take as long as necessary and may or may not involve someone else, depending on the circumstances.
I realize that all three - creating, sex and kink - play important roles in keeping me balanced and centered. If I go too long without exercising either one, it undermines my effectiveness in other areas of my life.
Who knew the key to balance and personal effectiveness is to ensure some sort of play - creating, sex or kink - every day? And it only took me fifty years to figure this out... :p
I also get cranky if I go too long between play sessions. Pet and I finally did get a session in last week after a bit of a dry spell. I don't know which one of us needed it more. My need to dominant, to strip him naked and have him accept whatever I choose to dish out, hadn't been exercised in a while. I have also not been on the receiving end of any erotic pain since well before Christmas. I was itching for both.
I stripped to the waist when I pulled out my single tail and began to alternate delivering blows to him and to me. The sting was invigorating! I peeled off a little more when I pulled out the Little Devil. I zapped him and then myself. At one point, I stood next to him, thigh to thigh, and alternated zaps. He was twitching and lurching while I was squealing with delight! I looked at him and said, "Sometimes I think I really scare you Pet." He quickly agreed, without taking his eyes off me. I think he was a little worried what I'd try next!
When we finally crawled into bed that night, I remarked on how focused and peaceful I felt. A play session with him always seems to settle me. The sensory experience combined with the loving acceptance I get from him feeds my soul. And there is no way I can satisfy this need alone.
And then there is my libido. Lately it seems it is at the bottom of the list behind my creative and kinky pursuits. I know that this time of year, my energy level is lower, so I'm not surprised that the space between sexual encounters has grown given the myriad of demands on my attention these days. Having said that, it is the easiest of the three to satisfy. We don't stand on ceremony around here. If someone gets horny, they always have the option of retiring to private space and taking the matter in hand, so to speak. It can take as long as necessary and may or may not involve someone else, depending on the circumstances.
I realize that all three - creating, sex and kink - play important roles in keeping me balanced and centered. If I go too long without exercising either one, it undermines my effectiveness in other areas of my life.
Who knew the key to balance and personal effectiveness is to ensure some sort of play - creating, sex or kink - every day? And it only took me fifty years to figure this out... :p
Thursday, January 24, 2013
Settling into a new routine
250 posts ago, my life was very different than it is now. I was tentative, nervous and seriously wondering if I'd ever find acceptance for the way I wanted to live my life. When I look back at the early posts, I marvel at how much my life has changed.
As I write this evening, C and my partner are at their respective computers. C is conscious of the tough day I had at work and has been going out of her way to dote on me. My partner cooked a tasty meal for supper and has also been very affectionate. I remarked how wonderful it is to come home to two lovely women. Yes, I am becoming quite spoiled and am loving it.
One of the new traditions we've begun at this house concerns how we respond to the "open face sandwich." An "open face sandwich" is created when only two people hug. It has become common practice to invite a third or fourth person to join in to "complete" the sandwich. And the person most in need of the affection is placed in between the other two parties. It usually results in a minor cuddle-fest.
Work is underway to create a bedroom for C. Colors have been chosen, paint purchased and walls prepped. Within the next week or so her room should be complete. She is very excited about this.
Pet is in the city working, but he is never far from my mind. We've drafted up plans to build a small flat (384 square feet) on one side of the lot on which our small family home sits. He is equally excited about the prospect of moving into his own place and closer to the pack. We plan to begin construction this spring. The hope is we will get it closed in before the fall and then work at finishing it off over the winter.
Now as lovely as all of this is, my process of adjustment has not been without some issues. In particular, I found myself a little inhibited in terms of seeking sexual release. (I know this is hard to believe about a self-professed exhibitionist, but we all have our comfort zones and I was definitely a little outside of mine.) There is far less individual privacy at the moment in the house. Hence to push to get C her own room. Anyway, when I finally decided it was time to get over myself, nearly a month had passed since my last orgasm. I was stunned that I had let so much time pass. No wonder I was so bloody irritable the few days leading up to this.
While I won't likely ever let that much time pass again, I did enjoy myself immensely...and screamed myself hoarse in the process.
Pet and I also haven't had a real play session in a while. Between Christmas, spending social time together as a pack and our respective work schedules there really hasn't been much time. We are hoping to spend some time together this weekend and address this. I so want to do bad things to him. :-)
Anyway, it is getting late and C promised to massage my scalp.
As I write this evening, C and my partner are at their respective computers. C is conscious of the tough day I had at work and has been going out of her way to dote on me. My partner cooked a tasty meal for supper and has also been very affectionate. I remarked how wonderful it is to come home to two lovely women. Yes, I am becoming quite spoiled and am loving it.
One of the new traditions we've begun at this house concerns how we respond to the "open face sandwich." An "open face sandwich" is created when only two people hug. It has become common practice to invite a third or fourth person to join in to "complete" the sandwich. And the person most in need of the affection is placed in between the other two parties. It usually results in a minor cuddle-fest.
Work is underway to create a bedroom for C. Colors have been chosen, paint purchased and walls prepped. Within the next week or so her room should be complete. She is very excited about this.
Pet is in the city working, but he is never far from my mind. We've drafted up plans to build a small flat (384 square feet) on one side of the lot on which our small family home sits. He is equally excited about the prospect of moving into his own place and closer to the pack. We plan to begin construction this spring. The hope is we will get it closed in before the fall and then work at finishing it off over the winter.
Now as lovely as all of this is, my process of adjustment has not been without some issues. In particular, I found myself a little inhibited in terms of seeking sexual release. (I know this is hard to believe about a self-professed exhibitionist, but we all have our comfort zones and I was definitely a little outside of mine.) There is far less individual privacy at the moment in the house. Hence to push to get C her own room. Anyway, when I finally decided it was time to get over myself, nearly a month had passed since my last orgasm. I was stunned that I had let so much time pass. No wonder I was so bloody irritable the few days leading up to this.
While I won't likely ever let that much time pass again, I did enjoy myself immensely...and screamed myself hoarse in the process.
Pet and I also haven't had a real play session in a while. Between Christmas, spending social time together as a pack and our respective work schedules there really hasn't been much time. We are hoping to spend some time together this weekend and address this. I so want to do bad things to him. :-)
Anyway, it is getting late and C promised to massage my scalp.
Thursday, January 17, 2013
Kinky Domesticity
If someone had told me a year ago that today I would be living with my partner and C, planning renovations to give C a room of her own and planning to build a small flat in the yard so Pet can have his own space, I wouldn't have believed it, but here we are!
The other evening, the four of us were stretched out in the living room watching Jeff Dunham videos on Netflix, cuddling, hugging and making funny faces at each other. We discussed the night's sleeping arrangements in very practical terms. I got the bedroom with Pet, while C and my partner took the pull out couch since I had to work in the morning. We ate supper together and shared our respective news and thoughts. It was very domestic and heart warming.
Tit flashing has become a common way to inject a little levity into a moment. Hugs are abounding between the four of us. We walk up behind each other and spontaneously snuggle. Most hugs involve three people as we have begun to consider a hug between two souls to constitute an "open-faced sandwich"; clearly incomplete!
Pet as the lone man is not at all intimidated by the presence of three older women and seems to be genuinely enjoying the new dynamic. We have hatched a plan to build a tiny house on the property that will become his principal dwelling since the main house is so tiny. Pet is so excited about the project and has been busy doing research to explore his tastes in decor and color. And he loves the plan I came up with!
My partner is spending so much less time alone now. She is a cuddle bug and is benefiting greatly from the vast increase in physical affection and stimulating company available since C moved in. C is blossoming in the haven we've been able to provide her and is working her healing arts on our aging bodies.
I get to come home to two women who genuinely care for me and who dote on me. While Pet does not yet live here full time, my anxieties about spending time with him are gone and we can be more comfortable and natural about our feelings for each other now, which pleases me greatly.
It has been a busy few weeks with the wind down from Christmas, an increase in stress at work and the adjustment process that goes along with major relationship change, so the energy for kink play has been a little scarce. But in a way this lull has made it all seem much more real to me. The relationships I am forging are serious and for the long term. They are worthy of investment on many levels: physically, financially, emotionally and spiritually.
And this new pack feels right, to all of us. As my partner put it this evening, "A good pack is made up of strong individuals dedicated to a common purpose: the overall success of the pack."
Sounds like a recipe for kinky domestic bliss to me. :-)
The other evening, the four of us were stretched out in the living room watching Jeff Dunham videos on Netflix, cuddling, hugging and making funny faces at each other. We discussed the night's sleeping arrangements in very practical terms. I got the bedroom with Pet, while C and my partner took the pull out couch since I had to work in the morning. We ate supper together and shared our respective news and thoughts. It was very domestic and heart warming.
Tit flashing has become a common way to inject a little levity into a moment. Hugs are abounding between the four of us. We walk up behind each other and spontaneously snuggle. Most hugs involve three people as we have begun to consider a hug between two souls to constitute an "open-faced sandwich"; clearly incomplete!
Pet as the lone man is not at all intimidated by the presence of three older women and seems to be genuinely enjoying the new dynamic. We have hatched a plan to build a tiny house on the property that will become his principal dwelling since the main house is so tiny. Pet is so excited about the project and has been busy doing research to explore his tastes in decor and color. And he loves the plan I came up with!
My partner is spending so much less time alone now. She is a cuddle bug and is benefiting greatly from the vast increase in physical affection and stimulating company available since C moved in. C is blossoming in the haven we've been able to provide her and is working her healing arts on our aging bodies.
I get to come home to two women who genuinely care for me and who dote on me. While Pet does not yet live here full time, my anxieties about spending time with him are gone and we can be more comfortable and natural about our feelings for each other now, which pleases me greatly.
It has been a busy few weeks with the wind down from Christmas, an increase in stress at work and the adjustment process that goes along with major relationship change, so the energy for kink play has been a little scarce. But in a way this lull has made it all seem much more real to me. The relationships I am forging are serious and for the long term. They are worthy of investment on many levels: physically, financially, emotionally and spiritually.
And this new pack feels right, to all of us. As my partner put it this evening, "A good pack is made up of strong individuals dedicated to a common purpose: the overall success of the pack."
Sounds like a recipe for kinky domestic bliss to me. :-)
Sunday, January 6, 2013
Be careful what you wish for...
I once read that good stress is still stress and can still freak you out and cause you grief. I've recently been reminded of this.
My partner, who has struggled with the notion of polyamory, appears now to have embraced it. Now this is good, don't get me wrong, but I must confess to being mesmerized with how fast the rules seem to have changed. I've gone from being almost paranoid about every minute I spend with Pet and how it is affecting my partner to being encouraged by her to kiss C in front of her. Yup, that's where things wandered the other evening...
Now surprisingly, it is not the act of being physically intimate with someone that causes me pause, nor the sight of my partner doing so. I am completely cool with that. I'm just not ready to share a closet or a bed (to sleep in)as quickly. I've discovered I am far more guarded about these mundane things than I would have thought. Who knew?
My partner has known C far longer than me. And in typical double Cancerian fashion, once she has decided to take a course of action, is marching along happily. This time, I'm playing catch up and wondering how this new relationship has suddenly gained momentum so fast. I knew Pet for a year before we began playing. It wasn't that long ago that my partner couldn't imagine sharing a house with him and I, yet now plans are afoot for both C and him to move in. And while I am thrilled with this development, I must also confess to feeling the pressure of being the bread-winner for the group. I'm also worried about:
I plan to read this post to the three of them before I post. I'm hoping it will generate some constructive discussion.
My partner, who has struggled with the notion of polyamory, appears now to have embraced it. Now this is good, don't get me wrong, but I must confess to being mesmerized with how fast the rules seem to have changed. I've gone from being almost paranoid about every minute I spend with Pet and how it is affecting my partner to being encouraged by her to kiss C in front of her. Yup, that's where things wandered the other evening...
Now surprisingly, it is not the act of being physically intimate with someone that causes me pause, nor the sight of my partner doing so. I am completely cool with that. I'm just not ready to share a closet or a bed (to sleep in)as quickly. I've discovered I am far more guarded about these mundane things than I would have thought. Who knew?
My partner has known C far longer than me. And in typical double Cancerian fashion, once she has decided to take a course of action, is marching along happily. This time, I'm playing catch up and wondering how this new relationship has suddenly gained momentum so fast. I knew Pet for a year before we began playing. It wasn't that long ago that my partner couldn't imagine sharing a house with him and I, yet now plans are afoot for both C and him to move in. And while I am thrilled with this development, I must also confess to feeling the pressure of being the bread-winner for the group. I'm also worried about:
- maintaining a balance between my need for alone time and the need to spend time with three wonderful people
- finding a way to stretch our resources to provide space and comfort for all three so that neither feels left out
- ensuring I have enough energy left at the end of each day to nurture my own creative goals
- explaining to my family that I now live with three adults
- avoiding negative community gossip - as I live in a very small town and have a very public job
I plan to read this post to the three of them before I post. I'm hoping it will generate some constructive discussion.
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